the girl who shares needles ([info]deliapants) wrote,
@ 2009-01-22 16:07:00
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Current location:the haunted bookshop
Current mood: WHY SO CURIOUS?
Current music:the record store's four Dylan songs. over and over. srsly.
Entry tags:heaving bosoms, holy crap sparkletext!

I know you don't like heaving bosoms, but...

What do you have against romance novels?


I mean beyond the "omg so cheesy" and "unrealistic happy ending" generic complaints. What specifically do you have against romance novels? Secret Baby? Convenient Wife? Secret Baby, Convenient Wife? Unrealistic happy endings? Hating-each-other-but-falling-in-love-anyway?

(Please refer your friends as well. I really want to know what people really think about romance novels. For the record, my own response is in this post, and it's super long. And I like romance novels.)

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[info]eleraama
2009-01-22 10:35 pm UTC (link)
I dislike that they're formulaic, mostly. Show me a RN that is not composed entirely of tropes or has an ending I can't see from three pages in, and I'll reconsider.

Incidentally, I don't actively dislike them, I just don't read them.

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[info]eleraama
2009-01-22 10:35 pm UTC (link)
The gay ones are just as bad, too, so the predominance of hetero ones doesn't bother me.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 03:07 am UTC (link)
Sometimes the gay ones are worse in terms of tropes, imho.

Do you actually want me to give you a non-tropey romance novel or was that just speaking metaphorically? Heh, this sounds like a quest for Smart Bitches (although I do have one that isn't tropey mctroperson).

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[info]eleraama
2009-01-23 03:13 am UTC (link)
Well, it also has to meet all my other requirements for reading something: decent writing, compelling characters, no usage of comic sans, etc.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 04:10 am UTC (link)
...there are books that use Comic Sans? *whimpers* I've seen self-published/vanity-press books with Comic Sans on the cover, but... *shiver* No. Just. No.

I know I'm pretty much always like BLAH BLAH SMART BITCHES OM NOM NOM DOCTOR WHO, but Smart Bitches is actually a pretty good way to find out which romance novels are Tropezilla and which are pretty decent.

(JSYK, I have had this tab open for like an hour because I've been reading Smart Bitches)

Anyway, if you really want a romance novel that isn't the tropiest trope that ever troped, I have one in a box somewhere in my apartment. I have several in several boxes, but this one is a fave.

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[info]winterbymorning
2009-01-22 10:38 pm UTC (link)
They're... typically not very well-written.

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[info]your_lake_como
2009-01-22 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Ditto. I have read too much really fantastically-written literature to be interested in romance novels outside of the occasional piece of fun.

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[info]clemsblueruins
2009-01-22 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Unrealistic characters, often poorly-written (as I echo Colleen and the above poster) with little distinctive voice or interesting style, too narrow a story (hark! love & sex!, whut else is there?), and far too much leaning on the importance of binary relationships. The latter is usually unavoidable in a lot of books, but this specific emphasis in romance novels is really annoying.

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[info]fictionalfaerie
2009-01-23 01:53 am UTC (link)
I don't dislike them, I just rarely read them. I've tried a few and just been unmotivated to finish them out. It's not an active dislike or holding something against them, it's just that I read a bit and I tend to move on. I think maybe they are too predictable? I'm not sure if that's it, even, though, because often I read things I can call what's going to happen on...

I did positively adore the series by Diana Gabaldon, The Outlander being the first in it- I only read up until The Fiery Cross, which I've not quite finished yet, and need to so that I can read the last one as well.
I'm not sure what they count as, though...
When my mom started work four or five years ago (she works at Barnes & Noble) they were in the Romance section, but have since migrated their way to being shelved as Fiction instead...

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[info]notacrnflkgirl
2009-01-23 02:58 am UTC (link)
Link are broked.

I have no qualms with the genre in and of itself, although I cop to reading it only for the lulz.

ETA: Who says we don't like heaving bosoms?

Edited at 2009-01-23 02:59 am UTC

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 03:02 am UTC (link)
Which link is broken?

Also, it is weird reading/writing comments to you without using capslock.

I often use the phrase heaving bosoms to refer to romance novels (the tag, for example).

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[info]notacrnflkgirl
2009-01-23 03:09 am UTC (link)
http://deliapants.livejournal.com/www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/series/italian-husbands/secret-baby-convenient-wife.htm

should be

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/series/italian-husbands/secret-baby-convenient-wife.htm

Ha, mixed case. It's like trying to do city traffic right after you get off the Thruway.

Aw, I know! Heaving bosoms, bodice-rippers, etc. Romance novels make for good caricatures. :D

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 04:38 am UTC (link)
IDK why the link did that, but it's fixed now. Maybe my HTML is just full of fail.

I love me some romance novels. Emphasis on some.

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[info]humdrumtown
2009-01-23 03:31 am UTC (link)
Generally, I don't like romance novels because I don't like romance very much. Even the majority of fanfiction I read can only be loosely referred to as romance. I typically read things that are dark, sometimes romantic, but also manage to be well-written. Fanfiction is also free and easy to get. I don't have to leave the house.

I don't like the typical formula for romance novels, either. Same goes for romantic or romcom movies.


Plus, I wouldn't be an English major if I didn't enjoy the lit most people find boring. To each her own.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 04:31 am UTC (link)
I should post what I dislike about romance novels since I invited this conversation.

Shit, this is long.

I love and hate some things at the same time. They are cheesy, predictable, and usually poorly written. Some of them, the really terrible ones like Johanna Lindsey or Kathleen Woodiwiss are my book equivalent to hipsters making playlists with a Britney Spears song. (What a ridiculous metaphor, right? I just mean that sometimes I read the really terrible ones to be ironic, or to make the good ones better.)

Things I love and hate in romance novels: how fucking cheesy they are, how predictable they are (HEA, every time), the poorly-paced sexual tension, counting how many tropes one author can include in 200 pages, the genre being a trope in itself, the BFF being the more interesting character.

I've seen a lot of arguments that romance novels are harmful because they give women unrealistic expectations for relationships. I might agree with this if I read them twenty years ago. Again, with the Johanna Lindsey and Kathleen Woodiwiss -- a lot of old romance novels are just 400-page-long rape fantasies where an heiress is kidnapped and/or arranged-marriage-d and the guy forces himself on her but fifty pages later she's knocked up and suddenly in love with him. My hatred for this subgenre of romances knows no bounds. Granted, this was probably a realistic representation of relationship dynamics Back In The Day (most of the romances of the '70s and '80s were historicals, back when Contemporary blew chunks). And it's making a comeback now that Twilight has shown thirteen-year-olds that Abusive Relationships Are Okay If He Really Really Loves You! I would like to think that reading a book like Twilight or The Flame And The Flower wouldn't fuck up your idea of relationships, but based on the Facebook groups titled Edward Cullen Fucked Up How I View Relationships (or something to that effect), I'd say my faith in humanity is about to take a nosedive.

Even without the abusive-relationship (god knows why I started typing fellatio instead of relationship, but there you have it) aspect of a lot of romances, there's still the they-fell-in-love-so-quickly or the Prince Charming/Cinderella trope, or the he's-a-ho-but-she-changes-his-ways relationships that are equally unrealistic and make love look so easy when really, it just doesn't happen that way.

One of the things I hate the most about romance in general is the idea that as soon as the two characters realize they are in love with each other, realize that it is reciprocated, and get over the main conflict (usually involving someone trying to kill them or split them up), they have no problems ever again.

Another big'un, which was the topic of discussion on Smart Bitches this week, is Insta-Love. As in, they meet and fall madly in love immediately. The actual post was in regards to Insta-Sex, which I have an easier time reading (although I do love me some unresolved sexual tension), because I go mad with desire for someone before falling head over heels for them, on the whole. Plus, I don't like the implication of Insta-Love -- that if you love someone immediately, you'll love them forever no matter what (my big issue with marraige, too). People change. Sometimes they become assholes, and I don't really love assholes.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 04:31 am UTC (link)
In terms of specific areas of romance outside the tropes, I don't like is the current Paranormal trend, although this is in part because I am not big on the Real World With Just A Little Bit Of Magic trope. I think it's overdone, and usually done really poorly. I have yet to read a paranormal romance that didn't make me want to stab my eyes out. Vampires? Not really digging them. I get the symbolism of giving yourself to a vampire, how it's all about the sacrifices you're willing to make for love, but since reading Twilight, all I think when I think of simpering heroine in love with someone who essentially wants to kill her, I think Domestic Abuse!!!

I hate fashonista chick lit. Just... no. I see how it's a form of escapism for middle-class housewives and ambitious college students, but I really do not care about So And So's Designer Shoes and I have no desire to even visit New York City. Chicago was too claustrophobic, I can't imagine not having a panic attack in the streets of NYC.

I hate the Ultra Man hero. I do not want a lumberjack. I do not want a billionaire (or his secret baby). I do not want a Navy Seal who is secretly a Viking who can travel through time (YOU THINK I AM KIDDING THIS IS A REAL BOOK). I do not have any fantasies involving Uber-Man. As evidenced by my attraction to Foxy Librarian, I like boys who need feeding and who are not the epitome of masculinity (srsly, can you imagine Uber-Man as a librarian?). Why would I want to read about some douchebag who can bench press a full-grown woman? I. HATE. FABIO. Now it's campy to have him on covers, but I just can't stand Fabio on my covers. Not only is it never how the hero looks in the book, I THINK HE IS THE FUGGEST FUG THAT EVER FUGGED HOT DAMN.

I hate historicals. All historical romances. I don't identify with Regency England. I don't care about Regency Englad. I don't want a big poofy dress and someone to dance with at my first season's ball. What makes me grind my teeth the most about historicals is most authors use modern-day slang which is not just inaccurate but also lame. I cannot tell you the number of times I have seen the word cool in Regencies, and it is not referring to the temperature.


Most of all, I hate how the essentials of romances never ever changes. Sure, you'd figure True Love Wins Above All would never change, and I don't expect it to, but the tropes of the genre will always be accurate. General tropes like Forbidden Love or Friends Become More or Mistaken Identity can always be worked well, even (and sometimes especially) when the main story isn't the twue wuv, but the staples of romance, the Fabios and misunderstandings, the stereotypical pace: 1/4 initial meeting, 1/2 tension/supertension/moartension, 1/4 getting over the tension and falling in love and beating the bad guy, Epilogue: BABIES. That shit is old, but it will never get old for the publishers.


My ideal romance would be a contemporary romance that takes tropes and stomps all over them. Except the one where they're friends and realize they want to jump each other's bones, so they jump each other's bones and live happily ever after. I'm such a sucker for that plot and pretty much every romance novel I've plotted out follows that trope.

I mentioned it in passing at the shop the other day and Nialle was totally shocked when I told her, but the heroine in Bet Me is an actuary, which is the last job you'd expect to see in a romance (but worked perfectly for her character). It is also my favorite romance novel ever, hands down. I'm working my way through some more Jennifer Crusie this week, and I have a feeling I'll fall more in love with Anyone But You than I did with Bet Me (which is saying a lot because I LOVE Bet Me), but Crusie is hands down one of my favorite writers, even including Real Books.

I'm not sure this qualifies as an contemporary romance or chick lit, but I really enjoyed Baby Proof by Emily Giffin, as well. Pretty hardcore. I think I slacked off work all day at the library while reading it a few months ago (and was caught slacking by an 8-year-old, which was embarrasing).

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 04:33 am UTC (link)
And of course, the stereotypical romances, the Harlequins and Silhouettes and Mills & Boon, are mostly crap as well. But they're up front about it. I mean, really. Secret Baby, Convenient Wife? The Millionaire's Inexperienced Love-Slave? The lame-ass plot is in the title. That's actually something I respect about romance novels: they are romance novels, and they don't try to trick you into thinking they're anything but.

This goes back to my distaste for the phrase "graphic novels" which I still stand by thinking that it was only created for people who read comic books to seem more literary. I will acknowledge that there is a difference between Twilight: The Manga and Watchmen, but most of the people who are upset at the library for not using the phrase "graphic novel" are upset that we are not trying to make Twilight sound like something even slightly literary.

Edited at 2009-01-23 04:50 am UTC

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[info]notacrnflkgirl
2009-01-23 04:56 am UTC (link)

Again, with the Johanna Lindsey and Kathleen Woodiwiss -- a lot of old romance novels are just 400-page-long rape fantasies where an heiress is kidnapped and/or arranged-marriage-d and the guy forces himself on her but fifty pages later she's knocked up and suddenly in love with him. My hatred for this subgenre of romances knows no bounds. Granted, this was probably a realistic representation of relationship dynamics Back In The Day (most of the romances of the '70s and '80s were historicals, back when Contemporary blew chunks). And it's making a comeback now that Twilight has shown thirteen-year-olds that Abusive Relationships Are Okay If He Really Really Loves You! I would like to think that reading a book like Twilight or The Flame And The Flower wouldn't fuck up your idea of relationships, but based on the Facebook groups titled Edward Cullen Fucked Up How I View Relationships (or something to that effect), I'd say my faith in humanity is about to take a nosedive.

I wanted to bring this up, but I don't know my romance novels well enough (read: at all) to do so.

Talking point: Does erotic fiction in which rape is central have to shape women's ideas about and expectations in relationships to have a negative impact? I'd say the glorification/romanticization of rape does enough damage.

And now for something completely different: possibly the worst "romance" novel ever.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 05:27 am UTC (link)
Talking point: Does erotic fiction in which rape is central have to shape women's ideas about and expectations in relationships to have a negative impact? I'd say the glorification/romanticization of rape does enough damage.

I'd say romanticizing rape is destructive, hands down.

I cannot get through a book if its central plot involves rape or a coercive relationship, even if it's using rape as a plot device to show advancement of character or whatever. I just can't do it. It depresses me in general, but it's worse with romance novels because usually the female character is set up as headstrong and not a dumbass (Twilight started with Bella being Not A Dumbass), but becomes Too Stupid To Live once a male character enters the picture. In most of them, I call it rape fantasy because it's not the hard definition of rape (although it is, technically, rape), she resists but not that much, so in the end she really does want it. For a while, I'd refer to romances as "No! No! Stop! We Mustn't! Stop! No! Oh, well, just this once, I suppose." They passively accept it, so that it's not quite rape because in the end she luurves him, but it is rape because she's been pressured into it.

And on a slightly related note, I've had so many people harping on me Andrea Dworkin-style about how such-and-such I'm reading (usually romance novels) is essentially male dominance which is essentially rape because the woman is being objectified and blahblah, so when I do encounter books that deal with rape, my knee-jerk reaction is "Oh, for fuck's sake."

Also, I split up Romance Novels and Erotic Fiction, because the main plot of romance isn't the sex, it's the twu wuv aspects of the relationship. And while there may be a relationship in erotic fiction, it's not a traditional twu wuv relationship.

"DON'T PLAY LIKE WE STILL SO POOR WE GOTTA DRINK COLORED WATER AND MAKE LIKE IT'S KOOL-AID." Best line ever. XD

One of the fiction librarians and I love talking about Urban fiction (your link is an example of Urban Fiction). I've read one that I enjoyed, but overall I can't relate to them and they're written in a dialect I do not understand, so I brush them off as crap. Did you know that 50 Cent has a line of Urban Fiction? My library stocks the shit out of that stuff.

Before I saw the content of your link, I was expecting you to link to Gold-Plated Garbage Truck. Although it may not count as romance, so how about Decadent, which another librarian purchased just because the pages demanded it. Worst. Romance. Ever.

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[info]notacrnflkgirl
2009-01-23 05:30 am UTC (link)
I had something Really Important to say, but The Gold Plated Garbage Truck has me dumbstruck.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 05:34 am UTC (link)
Hence why it's at the end of the comment. XD

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[info]a_is4addiction
2009-01-23 05:50 pm UTC (link)
They're really cliche and seem to take no effort at all, the sex scenes are boring, the endings egregious...in my opinion, just about anything else you can read is better than a romance novel.

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-23 07:58 pm UTC (link)
YOU ARE FROM LAMES!

What is up with [info]the_caps_files members living in Iowa? Half of the members must live here, srsly.

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[info]a_is4addiction
2009-01-25 08:41 pm UTC (link)
WHAT!

This makes me stupendously happy. I thought that literally no Philes lived in Iowa EVAR. Are you nearby? And yes, I do believe this town is appropriately nicknamed LAMES *tears*

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[info]deliapants
2009-01-25 10:49 pm UTC (link)
OMFG WHAT THE FUCK HOW MANY OF US ARE THERE?

[info]eleraama, [info]clemsblueruins and I all live in Iowa City and frequently have X-Files themed parties with some of the former undergrad writer's community at UI. IT IS FUN I THINK YOU AND [info]icedteainthebag SHOULD HANG WITH US.

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[info]a_is4addiction
2009-01-27 03:33 am UTC (link)
Ooh, I come to Iowa City all the time and would love to go to an X-files themed party! I have no friends who are Philes so this would be awesome. WE MUST MAKE THIS HAPPEN! FOR SERIOUS.

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